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Western allies join Egypt in war against democratic values  - Daily News Egypt

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Western allies join Egypt in war against democratic values 

When western countries are criticised for legitimising Egypt’s oppressive rule, excuses are offered in return. One response is that Egypt does not heed their concerns regarding the dire human rights conditions. “We’ve tried telling them, but they don’t listen,” is a common way of phrasing it. As to why business deals proceed smoothly despite Egypt’s …


When western countries are criticised for legitimising Egypt’s oppressive rule, excuses are offered in return. One response is that Egypt does not heed their concerns regarding the dire human rights conditions. “We’ve tried telling them, but they don’t listen,” is a common way of phrasing it. As to why business deals proceed smoothly despite Egypt’s record breaking rights violations, the response is that the west cannot fix Egypt’s problems or put an end to the repression.

It is true: Egypt’s main problems are essentially an internal matter that cannot be solved by the west. Indeed, solutions should not be requested or expected from western countries. Yet the rhetoric is faulty and aims to absolve countries supporting present day Egypt of their actions.

Countries like the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, France, and indeed the entire EU have not been keen on condemning Egypt’s practices recently. In the past, they would in private meetings and occasionally in public statements, but now bringing up the topic has become rare. Continued business agreements further embolden and empower the Egyptian regime. Even if no change comes about through western countries adhering to their proclaimed moral standards, the west’s perceived ineffectiveness of even trying is not a valid excuse. It contributes negatively to the deterring rights conditions in Egypt.

Ongoing arms deals, energy contracts, and numerous other forms of trade are viewed as an opportunity to become ‘friends’ with Egypt. Theoretically, this would allow these partners to have more influence on how Egypt acts. Surely they would not refuse advice or requests from friends?

This notion, despite its popularity, has proven unrealistic. The US has been closer to Egypt’s regime than most other western countries, yet has also complained that their ‘friends’ do not listen to them. So much so that they have dropped the façade and do not ever bother condemning Egypt’s atrocities anymore. In fact, the Obama administration proposed waiving the human rights conditions on aid to Egypt.

France had a similar revealing encounter. François Hollande visited Egypt personally to solidify business and arms deals, further legitimising President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi’s rule. In late May, a French journalist was denied entry to Egypt, embarrassingly at the same time when French members of parliament, headed by Philippe Folliot, were visiting Egypt. Try as they might with their ‘friends’, the matter has not yet been cleared. Rémy Pigaglio was detained for thirty hours before being forced to leave Egypt, despite having arrived with a valid visa and press accreditation, while French MPs’ pleas for more information and demands in favour of Pigaglio fell on deaf ears.

The violations of rights and democratic values are countless. One blatant example is the attack on press freedom, with an unprecedented storming of the Press Syndicate and the detention of the head of the Press Syndicate, Yehia Qallash, along with several other board members. Similarly, death sentences without a fair trial, arbitrary pre-trial detentions that can last for years, the invasion of privacy as police allow themselves to browse people’s personal phones without a warrant, torture, enforced disappearances, and extrajudicial killings are all on the rise and seem to raise no eyebrows.

In response to the undeniable documentation of these attacks on basic human values, numerous diplomats have claimed that Egypt is helping to fight terrorism. This is problematic for many reasons. Accepting rights violations carried out by a state in order to fight terrorism is not an acceptable stance and it defeats the purpose. Can we accept the murder of Giulio Regeni, in which security services are implicated, simply because Egypt is fighting terrorism? One of terrorism’s aims is to deprive people of their basic rights, and that is exactly what rights violations are all about.

But even if we accept the problematic notion that these violations can be tolerated because of the fight against terrorism, it is not accurate to assess that Egypt is successful at it. Since Al-Sisi asked the masses to commission him to fight terror on 26 July 2013, the numbers of extremist militants in Sinai have been on the rise. It is estimated that the numbers increased from the tens to the hundreds. Young people, and particularly residents of North Sinai, are being forcibly disappeared. This is being carried randomly and often without any associations to terrorism and a great many have the potential of being radicalised due to the injustices they face.

Indeed, the biggest hole in that elaborate theory is the persistent and deliberate crackdown on secular democratic peaceful voices coupled with underhanded deals with religious extremists. Sustaining Al-Sisi’s rule does not help avert a Syria or Islamic State scenario. Locking up peaceful activists does nothing but contribute to the rise of extremist opposition. Banning rights defenders from travel with the threat of asset seizure does not make sense. The fight on terror is never won when the same terror tactics are exercised by others who are slightly more likeable.

Diplomats who have met Al-Sisi are reported to have found him ‘likeable’. He has been able to cater to what they want to hear, irrespective of the facts on the ground. It is easy to believe that the judiciary is beyond control, that he is trying to fight corruption and that police reform is a work in progress when it is not contrasted by the stark reality of politicised sentencing, police impunity, and the sacking of and investigation into Egypt’s top auditor Hesham Geneina for exposing corruption of state bodies.

It may be the duty of representatives from these countries to do what’s best for their people, but it is also a moral duty to point out moral and logical inconsistencies. Even token gestures of bringing up rights or condemning violations of democratic values have all but disappeared. More recently we have seen British ambassador to Egypt John Casson criticised for failing to mention human rights as an option on the agenda of British MPs visiting Egypt. Similarly, Gerard Steegh, the Dutch ambassador to Egypt has stressed that Egypt made progress in its transition to democracy despite human rights violations on the rise at an all-time high.

In some ways, facts became less consequential as the moral question became needlessly compounded. More and more these facts need to be evaded through a series of ‘practical’ concerns. The US and Europe are not responsible for what the Egyptian regime does, and likewise Egypt is not oppressive simply because of international support. Yet, it is important to realise that western empowerment has a role to play and it hinders Egypt’s struggle for democracy and a true stability built on justice.

Western countries that currently support the Egyptian regime will most certainly condemn it when it shows signs of change, just like they did with Mubarak. It is these western countries, not Egyptian officials, who have claimed they support democratic values. The least they can do is live up to their own rhetoric minus the excuses. Until the rhetoric matches actions, the war on democratic values by Egypt and its western allies continues. Meanwhile, excuses offered come off as nothing but propaganda.

Wael Eskandar is an independent journalist and blogger based in Cairo. He is a frequent commentator on Egyptian politics and has written for Ahram Online, Egypt Independent, Counterpunch, and Jadaliyya, among others. He blogs at notesfromtheunderground.net

Topics: Egypt War

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  • sam enslow

    Neglect the fact the US and other countries have placed restrictions on arms sold or given to Egypt. Forget money talks. Forget that any criticism of Egypt, no matter how accurate, is rejected by the Egyptian people. Neglect that every political force in Egypt claims the US or The West supports the other side. Forget that the Egyptian people would suffer without electricity, water treatment plants, etc. Forget the only thing Egypt offers to the World are constant complaints and refugees (the real shame of Egypt.) The West gives minimal support to Egypt. If Egyptians, the people, would work with others, they would get greater benefits. If Egyptians believed in human rights, the people, Egypt would have them. But Egyptians are happy blaming others, being emotional, and listening to anyone who says, ‘The great Egyptian people who built the Pyramids.’
    What political force in Egypt has presented an honest plan to improve Egypt? Who has fought for rights without placing limits that secure their power? Who has answered any of the demands of the 25 January Revolution? No one. You cannot help people who have no desire to help themselves or take responsibility for their actions. Ever hear an Egyptian say, ‘We were wrong?’

    • Teamsecure Alpha Group

      Well spoken sir

      • Uuta

        Poorly spoken. That is an easy western ideal; hey, it is so much easier to point your fingers at others. Because it helps you to not look at your own faults.

        Oh, and BTW: that guy who killed all those people in Orlando? 49, right? He claimed he was with Daesh.

        But he also was an ex-CIA person, and he currently (until he was killed) worked for a security agency that protects lots of big agencies: Homeland Security, US Border Control, etc.

        Oh! Almost forgot; you had a top Brotherhood member working in US Homeland Security. In case your don’t know, the Brotherhood is the grandparent of al-Qaeda — you know, the group that destroyed the World Trade Center in 9/11?

        • Teamsecure Alpha Group

          Well… who was it who elected the Brotherhood in first place?
          It was Egypt,wasnt it? After this happend many of Western countrys give it a Chance because they don’t want to ignore tue will of the people.
          It was blacklisted before as you may know.
          But anyway.. as long as egyptians keep there attitude that they never be,been and will be wrong.. they and the country never will change.

          • Uuta

            Ohhhh, you are very wrong about this. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, because you were not here for either revolution — or the election that put Moris in power.

            First thing: Egyptians did not know WHO the hell to vote for. In my opinion, Shawfiq, was the one with brains — even though he was in Mubarak’s government. But that is what made it difficult for most Egyptians — because the just got Mubarak out.

            Now, the other thing, is no one that I know — wanted the Muslim Brotherhood in power. But they do have lots of followers — and they know many Egyptians are poor, so they were buying their votes.

            Now, the last thing: I don’t think Morsi legally won. Why? Because Morsi proclaimed himself president at least 3-4 days before the electoral judges did. Now, does a democratic country allow a person to proclaim he is president, or do they wait for the electoral judges? You tell me.

            I had a lot of fear then, because there was a feeling here, that if he wasn’t given the presidency, that there would be civil war — started by the Brotherhood. And I think that that is why the judges in the end, said ‘OK” you are president — to save the country.

            NOW: who do you have running for president right now (if you are American)?
            Gee — you have a choice between Hilary Clinton — who lied with Obama to the rest of the world about Benghazi (forgetting to mentions for at least a year afterward — that it happened on 9/11)…….

            Or you have Trump. Although I think many of his ideas are good — he makes harsh comments without thinking about the consequences. That makes me worry about his hand being too close to the nuclear button.

            The nuclear button, that your dear president, Barak Obama bin Laden, also just gave to an enemy of America. Iran.

            So, all of this is if you are American. If you are not, then still think about this issue. Think hard before you reply to me, and think honestly.

            We are living in a world right now that is not trustworthy.

          • Teamsecure Alpha Group

            Well.. I was there.. And honestly..
            If you dont know what you are voting for… Dont vote!
            And I remember the Interview with an presitantial hopefull, the taxidriver.. “elect me because I know all streets in cairo”

            But this is what egypt repressend..
            If you realy want to know how egypts government work.. Ask the embassies in the country. they will be Report Chaos megalomaniac behavior and in General A “do what we want”
            Attitute, and everyone is just shaking the head in disbelief.
            A Minister who just lie in an ambassadors face and when pointed out… He answers “yes iam liying… And?”

          • Uuta

            I understand what you are saying. Yes, I was there too, and it seemed like even every street vendor wanted to run for president.

            But ask yourself this: who got elected? And did he really get elected in democracy? He declared himself president 3-4 days before the electoral judges. So tell me? How ‘democratic’ was that?

            And some of the stuff you just wrote, kind of confuses me. But then I think I understood it. You were writing as if I had to go to an Egyptian embassy in ‘my’ country?
            But why should I do that — when I live in Egypt.

          • Teamsecure Alpha Group

            Ahhh.. no the embassys of foreign countrys.. not Egyptian institutes..
            Well, I have spent much time with the consuls etc.. an the picture I had was just confirmed by them.
            Face it.. it’s going down and the time will come when Egypt will get what the Egyptian government is begging for.. Isolation or even worst

            Egyptian behavior must change, otherwise there will be no progress.
            Italy is all ready out of this country, Austria is pre pairing to do the same in case no solution will be found with the austrian cop who is held “hostage” by egypt
            You cannot force this twisted wired Egyptian political view on foreigners and expect that every country will accept whats happend with there citizen

          • Uuta

            No. But what I can do is to suggest to you that you remember that all countries and regions do not think and act the same because they are from different cultures.

            Duh.

            America is the nation who is getting more and more isolated. Because of all the stupid decisions of its president. And a Congress who doesn’t have enough testosteron (sp) to stand up to him.

            And by a bunch of Americans who seem to be asleep at the wheel — when they are the number one country in the world who should be using their voices.

            America could learn some very important lessons from Egypt. After all, Egyptians got two presidents out in two years.

          • Uuta

            Oh, and one more thing.
            You really need to know how to make your points with GOOD English; you know, meaning words and grammar. FX:

            All ready? (already)
            Countrys? (countries)
            begging for..? (begging for.)
            Pre pairing? (preparing)
            austrian? (Austrian)
            egypt? (Egypt)
            whats? (what’s)
            there? (hint: should be ‘their’)

          • Uuta

            You still don’t get it. You like to point fingers on issues you are not qualified to comment on. Sigh………………….

            But no problem. Keep your own wrong opinion. I will keep mine.

            And I will not waste another word talking to someone who likes to wear horse blinders when looking at life.

            Ciao baby.

          • Uuta

            Well — when I don’t know who to vote for, I most certainly DO NOT vote.

            But — if you were there, how much were you there? Did you live in a foreigner district? In a 5 star hotel? Because you aren’t getting it.

            Although I also heard that one about the taxidriver who said something like ‘elect me because I know all streets in cairo.”

            And if you want to have me ask the embassies as to how Egypt works — then you are very, very out there on this. They don’t know how Egypt works. Did anyone tell you how much Egyptian’s hated that US ambassador, Ann Patterson (I think that was her name)?
            Did they ever tell you that when Hilary Clinton came to Egypt after the 2013 ‘thingee,’ that people were throwing eggs and tomatoes and shoes at her car procession?

            And ahem: If you are American, I do believe your present president Barak Obama bin Laden — is trying to give away the political decision process to the United Nations. After, of course, he makes Americans pay to support terrorists who have come into their country under express order of the president.

            Hmmmm — Geeee– what kind of a Western president is that?
            And — would I really want a president like that?

          • YOaC

            Uuta, I have the utmost respect for your views because I have never visited your country and so have no firsthand knowledge. When you say that Christians are respected and that intolerant Muslims are few, I presume it is true.
            But when I read an article such as the following, where thousands of Muslims attack Christians trying to build a church, you must understand my reservations. Could you give me your perspective?
            http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/685429/Mob-5-000-attacks-Christians-for-building-church-shouting-Egypt-is-Islamic

          • Uuta

            Absolutely. There are certain areas in Egypt that are pretty much dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood AND Christians. The absolutely disqusting attack on the Christian grandmother, and then trying to burn yet more churches were in such an area. This is a place that Egypt needs to clean out, and I am guessing, that ‘clean out’ is coming very soon.

            But it is so hard to read about stuff like that, especially if you know it actually has happened.

            Now this may surprise you, BUT I tried to look up the web link article that you sent to me — but I could not do it as the article was removed. So I am guessing about what you are asking me about.

            Having said that, could you please tell me what the article was about? BTW: I looked for that article while physically in your country.

            And could not find it. Interesting, yes?

          • YOaC

            I just followed the link I posted and the article displayed properly.
            Here is the text of the article (without pictures).

            Horrifying mob of 5,000 attacks Christians for BUILDING CHURCH shouting ‘Egypt is Islamic’

            A MOB of 5,000 attacked a group of Christians as they attempted to build a church, the latest in a string of violent attacks in Egypt.
            Vigilantes torched and looted homes in Baidaa village after hearing rumours worship was taking place.
            And the horror continued when six CHRISTIANS were arrested for the brutal attack.
            Naim Aziz Moussa, who was one of the Christians taken into custody, had offered the top two floors of his home to Christian villagers to use for worship.
            Visits by a Coptic priest to the house near Amria, a small town south of Alexandria, fuelled speculation.
            A baying mob gathered and threw stones, destroyed a car and shouted “We don’t want a church, we will knock down the church building, Egypt is an Islamic country.”
            Mr Moussa said: “More than 5,000 people, including young and old, men and women, mobbed my home. They were shouting: ‘One way or another, we’ll bring the church down to the ground’.
            “‘No church will stand here in the village. It’s either us or you, infidels!’
            “The building was ransacked, including our home. My brother’s nearby new flat was also destroyed.”
            Many of the 80 Christians who live in the village of Baidaa, an area is heavily influenced by Muslim Salafists, were injured in the chaos, including women and children.
            Local priest Father Karas narrowly escaped the violent crowd who smashed his car as police were called to the scene.
            Mr Moussa said: “They were crying out: ‘Islamic! Islamic! We don’t want churches in Amreyya!’”
            “As the police arrived at the scene, angry Muslims were shouting, while their women were showing signs of jubilation that the police were there. “They were shouting out in support of the police, while at the same time stressing their rejection of the church on Islamic grounds.
            “The police chief could see me bleeding from my wounds. I complained to him about what happened to me. He said I deserved this, and more.
            “The police did nothing to protect the Christians. Right in their presence, more Christian properties were attacked. Father Karas’s car was smashed yet again.”
            Ten homes were looted and two were torched as the mob destroyed all the fittings and fixtures used in the house for worship.
            Coptic Christians have long struggled to legally build churches in Egypt, despite a growing Christian population.
            A new church can only be built by presidential decreers, which is only issued once a year.
            Villagers reported police officers attended evening Muslim prayers in front of the Christians’ homes and used loudspeakers to broadcast the service.
            Police arrested six Muslims and six Christians in the chaos, with the Muslims released to break their fast.
            The Christians were later released on bail and changed with building without permission and praying without a permit.
            Mr Moussa was among those arrested.
            The father-of-four is now sleeping rough with his pregnant wife after security forces banned the family from returning home.
            He said: “When at the police station, I requested the officer to take me to hospital as my head was bleeding. I was kept till midnight, before being allowed to go to the hospital, where I was stitched.
            “We’re sleeping rough. The security forces are not allowing us to go back home, unless we opt for extrajudicial conciliation.
            “The police tell me I can only go home if I agree to reconcile with my opponents.”
            The Moussa family have so far rejected the police bargain.
            A spokesman for Open Doors UK, a Christian advocacy group, said: “Persecution of Christians is on the rise in Egypt, last year it rose two places to 22 on our World Watch List of the most difficult places to be a Christian.
            “Violent incidents like this one reflect the tensions that run through everyday life for Christians who are a minority in that country.
            “Christian women are particularly vulnerable, often changing their Christian names to Muslim ones to avoid rape or kidnapping.
            “Open Doors is campaigning for freedom of religious belief for everyone – we want people to respect and allow others their right to believe as laid out in Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”
            The situation for Christians in Egypt is said to be getting worse with Christian women particularly vulnerable.
            There have also been reports of Christian women being abducted and forced to convert to Islam and marry older Muslim men.

          • Uuta

            WOW.
            Well, the scary thing is, is that news in Egypt gets relayed by mouth very, very quickly.

            And neither I nor my husband has heard of more than 95% of what was in that article.

            And, as a Christian living in Egypt, I should know.

            I think that this is a very good example of how terrorists go about manipulating the news.

            So, in the future, when you hear of Egypt jailing another journalist — think about that article that you just sent me.

          • YOaC

            I was skeptical of the information in the article, which is why I asked you about it. But even if the entire article is fallacious, it concerns me that you were blocked from seeing it.

          • Uuta

            Yes. But even stranger (about the article block) was that I was in a Western country when I tried to look at it.

            That bugs me even more.

          • YOaC

            I agree, and it is a little more than unnerving.

          • Uuta

            Oh, BTW Obama communist :o) — thank you VERY much for sending me that article. It is a really good example of what is going on with news manipulation.

          • Uuta

            I later said 95% was not correct. But I just re-read this, and I would have to say that 100% is not correct.
            And this is after talking to a friend who is very high up in the govt — and to friends of mine who live in that area. Although, the journalist is very bad as he is trying to mix up things, and not name areas correctly — and he/she doesn’t even know how to punctuate. Note the quotes have at the beginning one of these ” — but fail to put one at the end.

            This is a pretty sick rant. And an excellent example of why some journalists need to be jailed in Egypt.

            Period — the end. Thanks again for bringing my attention to this.

          • Steveglen

            Thanks for posting that. This is horrific, where is the outrage?
            This against a backdrop of obama excluding Syrian Christians as refugees because they are being killed by the pro-Assad forces instead of by Isis.

    • Andrew Duncan

      You are an Ass-hole Sir……..

    • Uuta

      And what do you do? Because it seems to me, that you support terrorism. Or perhaps you are just naive on what terrorism is, and support it by accident.

      I am not interesting in hearing your horse-blinder concept on who Egyptians are or who they aren’t.

      It is incredibly insulting — not to mention not true. I am Egyptian and most of that stuff you wrote about us is absolutely not true.
      So go stuff it, dear.

  • Andrew Duncan

    And the IDIOTS keep writing
    El Sisi will go down in history as one of the great Egyptians, kept Egypt as a country while {Israel +Qatar+Turkey} with help of CIA+ Mossad destroyed 5 Arabic countries and we have 6m refugees washing ashore of the EU with hundreds of kids drowning.. and destroyed MBs and all traitors running to Turkey like RATS at no time at all….God bless El Sisi and his team.

    • Uuta

      Totally agree. Abdel Fatah es-SIsi is amazing.

      And the West keeps pointing fingers at him. Well, maybe not all of the West. I liked YOUR comment!

  • Ayman Sultan

    So I guess you would like the west to come and teach Egypt about “human rights” just like they have in Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. etc.?

    • Qamartian

      Arab dictatorial loons are committing genocide in Yemen and ravaging that country.

      Egpyt is helping them, Tunisia is not.

      • Uuta

        And the Ennahda in Tunisia is a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot.

        Egyptians got rid of their Muslim Brotherhood president for a very good reason.

        And Sisi happens to be doing the right things.

        To change the subject, just think of how much happier Libyans and Iraqis would be right now if Saddam or Qaddafi were still leaders? They may not have been well-liked but the citizen’s lives would be much, much, much better than they are today.

        • Qaramatian

          Egypt’s revolution was more like Tunisia’s than it was like Libya or Syria, therefore that contention does not help your case. Ennada may be right wing, but it hasn’t introduced the Islamist measures that the Egyptian dictatorship has. And, by the way, Nidaa Tounes currently leads the coalition. Of course, to you Essebsi is a Muslim and thus mus be an extreme Islamist. Essebsi is better than a thousand Sisis.

          Bringing up Ennada is like saying that the UK is a terrible country because of UKIP. Would rather have something like Russia or North Korea than the UK?

          • Uuta

            Oh really? Were you here in Egypt when either of these revolutions took place?

            “Islamic measures?” Oh gee, sorry. I guess you were referring to the Islamic/Muslim Brotherhood measures that M Morsi was trying to force on to Egypt.

            And how funny. “Essebsi is 1000 times better than as-Sisi?” How funny — especially when you can’t even spell his name correctly.

            And terrorists love democracy — because it is so easy to hijack. I know this. Personally. So are you suggesting that Egypt gets hijacked?

            If you are, then you are sick, absolutely sick. But wait — I want to know if you have ever lived in Egypt. And for how long. Because if you haven’t lived over here — darling — then you don’t know jack sh**.

          • Uuta

            I just re-read your comment.
            And believe me — I am laughing with a huge grin on my face — due to your naivity. It is really quite amazing!

          • Uuta

            This is rather bizzare — you keep writing what “to you” is all about.
            And you know just a tiny, tiny, tiny bit about me.

            And most of your ‘guesses’ about me, are not correct.

            And ME countries in the Arab Spring, all seemed to want the same thing — at least that is what the news papers said.
            But you know — there were lots of foreigners in most revolutions. ME foreigners. Speaking with different dialects or accents.

            So you got to kind of wonder, if the whole Arab Spring wasn’t started by some group who moved from country to country, inciting it.

            And I really don’t care what you accuse Sisi of — I think he is great, and doing a very good job in a difficult time.
            Especially when people like you write stuff like that against him.

            So, if you are an Egyptian, or some other Middle Easterner, I would guess that either you are stupid, or a terrorist.

            Or perhaps both.

    • Andrew Duncan

      El Sisi will go down in history as one of the great Egyptians, kept Egypt as a country while {Israel +Qatar+Turkey} with help of CIA+ Mossad destroyed 5 Arabic countries and we have 6m refugees washing ashore of the EU with hundreds of kids drowning.. and destroyed MBs and all traitors running to Turkey like RATS at no time at all….God bless El Sisi and his team.

      • Uuta

        Yes. God bless es-Sisi and his team.
        If they weren’t here, Egypt would look like Syria right now. The West simply doesn’t understand because they think that all countries should work like Western ones do. And that invites terrorism.

        And none of us want that here. We’ve already had enough — but are prepared to keep hitting back at anyone who would come here with any bad intention.

    • Uuta

      Touche — good one Ayman. Perfect!

  • Qamartian

    Sisi is a low grade fascist terrorist. Terrible at dealing with terrorism, the economy, civil liberty, or other issues. All the nutcase does is inflict askar terrorism on Egypt.

    • Uuta

      What an idiot. You think SIsi is a low grade fascist terrorist? That is so bad that it is almost laughable.

      Especially when I think of the terrorist supporting president YOU have. That is, if you are an American.

      • Qaramatian

        You are one of two idiots here. Your dictator is supporting terrorists in Yemen and aiding the Wahabbi-led genocide there. You are as dumb as the fools that supported a genocidal junta in Guatemala. You idioticly and incorrectly assume that I support any country’s foreign policy. Your dictator is extremely fond of torture, a fact which makes him a fascist terrorist. I support neither the military fascists and their Wahhabis allies or the MB. Your lack of intellect prevents you from understanding that Sisi is a failure. Don’t bother mentioning the Orlando attack when your dictator loves to torture and incarcerate gays.

        • Uuta

          So what is YOUR nationality? Because if I do remember correctly, it was mainly the US and UK who invaded Iraq, precipitating a disaster so big that up to 1 million people died. Some might think of that as genocide. Remember the Armenian genocide? 1.5 million Armenians dead? Remember the Holocaust: 6 million Jews dead? Yes, genocide. And the US and UK were responsible for that.

          Then you can tell me what a great job NATO did in Libya.

          Then you can tell me what a fantastic job Barak Obama bin Laden did in Syria? He allowed terrorism to grow, sweetie pie. He wasn’t breaking it, he was supporting it. I guess he just didn’t want to listen to his Pentagon advisors.

          And then you are going to have to tell me why the US and allies are supporting getting Assad out — when, to date 400,000 Syrians are dead, probably four times that number displaced, etc, etc, etc.

          And THEN, you are going to have to tell me, why the US is inadvertantly, support Jabhat el-Nusra — you know, the military wing of al-Qaeda, who — you know — Flew airplanes into the World Trade Center killing about 3000?

          Don’t get on your high horse with me — especially when you haven’t lived it. Oh, BTW: have you lived it? I’ve asked you several times and you don’t answer. So I assume the answer is “no.”

          Do you live here? Because if you do, then I’m going to have to change my judgment of you. If you have lived here and you have opinions like this — then you must be a terrorist.

          Daesh or Boko Haram?

          But I’m still hoping that you are just simply naive.

          • Qaramatian

            I agree that the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust were genocides and large scale atrocities.
            Debating the foreign policy of the United States or Obama’s war crimes, or those of past American presidents, is starting to get off-topic. The main issue is whether Egypt would have been better off if there had been a move toward human rights and democracy after 2011 and after the deposition of Morsi. The foreign policy of the United States only matters if you believe that it would be better if the U.S. was a dictatorship. If the U.S. was a full scale authoritarian state, it is likely its foreign policy would be more, not less, brutal. No country is innately superior to another, so the point isn’t whether one has a better past than the other or is more moral.

            I’ll note though that it would be contradictory to support the Syrian government’s side in the civil war as a war against terrorists while opposing Ali Abdullah Saleh and the Houthis in Yemen. If Assad is all right, then it stands to reasons that Saleh and the GPC must be as well. One of their enemies is the Islah party, as well as AQ and Daesh.
            One thing I am curious about is whether you consider Wael Eskandar, Ahmed Harara, Mina Thabet, or Khaled Ali as terrorists or terrorist supporters. What you are saying makes it sound like you consider their political views and activities illegitimate. Is Hamdeen Sabbahi a Daesh/Boko Haram supporter?
            To answer your question, I am not Egyptian, but I became interested in studying the country and been watching its political developments since about 2009. It doesn’t bother me if people not of my nationality criticize the head of state or other officials in my government. I detest many of their actions anyway.

          • Uuta

            Got it.

            But talking about the US, genocide, and terrorism is NOT off target. Why? Because the US precipitated this problem in Iraq, then in Libya, and then in Syria. They have the ‘best’ intel; yet they neglected to find out if Osama bin Laden was in Iraq FIRST — before committing their country to war, and killing so many Iraqis.

            In Libya, they must have known about all of Qaddafi’s weapons caches — yet they left the country — blown up and full of terrorists and a strange mixture of tribes — without even looking for the weapons caches.

            In Syria, they claimed to have led the international coalition to take out Daesh. Yet, Daesh grew much bigger and stronger when the US (I mean, Obama, I guess — because I know that most of the average Americans do NOT want terrorism) went in to ‘destroy’ them.

            And America also made mad dog Erdogan of Turkey, their ally (Obama, I mean). It wasn’t until Putin of Russia came in, that the tide of terrorism started turning against Daesh.

            But where ever it is that you live, keep your eyes open to terrorism, and protect yourself from it. Because it seems that most Western governments do not know how to do this.

            If the lives of your citizens are less important than democracy, then those govts are not doing your job for their citizens.
            Because the security of any country is primary.

            As for what you say about Egypt, if you don’t live here, and you worry about human rights here, then you absolutely don’t understand what an incredible role Egypt has been playing in combating terrorism. Probably because you do not understand terrorism, or how terrorists use democracy, lead the west by their noses by printing untruthful articles, in order to woo the West.
            I know this for sure.

            So watch out for the bad guys.

          • Uuta

            Look, I know you mean well, but you simply don’t have even the basic clue of what I am talking about. Seriously, I am not criticizing you on this.

            But studying about a country doesn’t necessarily mean that you know about it. Thank you for studying about it. I appreciate that. But there are certain things that you have to actually live thru to understand. And I am the one who happens to be living thru this.

            I’m telling you straight out — terrorists love democracy — because it is so easy to hijack.

        • Uuta

          Oh, BTW: IF Egypt is supporting the Yemen war, it is probably with only 2-3 planes or ships.

          And Israel wanted to support the Yemeni war also. And, as Egypt and Israel seem to have much better relations right now, Israel came to Yemen under Egypt’s wing.

          So everything you are talking about is “blah, blah, blah.”

          • Qaramatian

            The Yemen war is appalling and was a terrible idea by Saudi Arabia and its coalition. Israel doesn’t have clear relevance to the Yemen war. Although, yeah, talking about Yemen is probably is getting off-topic. I mainly brought it as a counterpoint to the idea that opponents of human rights and democratic government are necessarily champions of peace or stability. I only support trying to achieve these goals through non-violent means, not through invasions or armed resistance.

          • Uuta

            Oh, I see. Well then, if you support non-violent means, then what would your solution be to Daesh?
            I’d really like to hear this. I don’t like violence either and would rather solve problems thru peace, but —– tell me what you would do about Daesh?

          • Qaramatian

            I think military force is necessary to deal with (most) terrorist organizations like Daesh. By nonviolent means, I mainly am talking about it as a means of promoting political reform or revolution. Revolutions that did not involve civil war seem to work much better. However, entities like Daesh or the Khmer Rouge that are categorically different kinds of “governments” would be exceptions.

          • Uuta

            Well, your intentions are very good and noble and I thank you for that. But I want to give you some ideas that you should think about very carefully…..

            Your ideas seem to be based on whatever country you come from. It sounds to me like it is Western, but I can’t be sure as I have never asked you this.
            But there is this: Western countries who try to make political reform in the ME always seem to screw up. FX: Iraq, Yemen, making a third political government in Libya, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc. Those countries are in turmoil because of Western reforms that — I am sure they meant very well — but making reforms that simply do not work in this region.

            And how do you make a revolution that does not involve — or come close to involving — civil war? I don’t think that you have ever been in a revolution. I have been in two so far. It’s a scary feeling. It feels like ANYTHING could happen, whether it be good or bad.

          • Uuta

            Well, I can agree with what you are saying. But other people may not. Like the Yemeni, Iranian, or Saudi governments.

            So your words are nice — but the reality is different. And it is the reality that we must deal with right now.

      • Qaramatian

        Tunisia is the only Arab country with a worthwhile government or somewhat decent foreign policy.

        • Uuta

          So if Tunisia is so great, why don’t you tell me how great they are? I’m not being contentious, but I do what to know your opinion on this.

          • Qaramatian

            One thing that they did right is their constitution. It is one of the most liberal in the Arab world. The country isn’t a utopia, of course, but they are at least starting to work things out.

          • Uuta

            But is that going to help them?
            When Daesh is right next door to them.
            Because terrorists simply love democracy.
            You know why? Because it is so easy to hijack.

          • Qaramatian

            By hijack democracy, do you mean that they try to exploit security or the legal system? It would seem that normally terrorists would do poorly in gaining popular support.

          • Uuta

            Ah — “by hijack democracy” I mean that they study the system and exploit it.

            Take the US: how many purportedly ‘illegal’ aliens do you have, who don’t have jobs and are on the welfare system.
            How many of them get free health care.
            How many of them are protected more than US citizens when they want to exercise their right of freedom of speech?
            Do you have any idea of how much news that Western countries would love to put in about the ME, because it is ‘sensationalist’ — but it doesn’t appear because of some Washington think tank, I imagine, saying possibly something like “we will revoke your news license if you talk/inform the public about this?
            And who pays for all of that?

            The American taxpayer. They have to pay for people to come into their country — to exploit them, and possibly kill them.
            San Bernadino? (sp)
            Orlando?
            World Trade Center?

        • Minymina

          Is that why Tunisians are all escaping to Europe in lifeboats?

          • Qaramatian

            Provide evidence of this claim, as well as evidence that Tunisians are more desperate to leave than citizens of Arab dictatorships of a comparable level of development.

          • Minymina
          • Qaramatian

            The article mentions that most of the migrants are from Sub-Saharan Africa and that the boat came from Libya.

          • Minymina

            It still mentions Tunisians.

          • Uuta

            But that is how Europe is being infiltrated by terrorists. I think most of the refugees who drown are actual refugees.

            But the people that have got into Europe?

            And remember: what country is south of Tunisia and Libya. Don’t they have some really horrible terrorist group called Boko Haram?

            And of course they are leaving from Tunisia. Think about it: the spotlight is on Libya, Egypt has a real tough anti-terrorist president — so they would want to leave from a country not in such a big ‘spotlight.’

            Remember: terrorists love to hijack democracy

          • Uuta

            Ahem — you need to look for things yourself. What Minymina asked you is actually very obvious. We’ve been seriously questioning the stupidity of European leaders for about 5 years, and questioning it a bit less before then.

            Now we even more seriously question the American president, Barak Obama bin Laden. Latin American ‘children’ at you border being brought in? Without being ‘vetted’? Your country also went from 3 trillion to almost 20 trilion dollars in debt. Why?

            But it seems like you mean to do good — but you are acting on news that has been handed to you.

            You need to search for your own news.

  • Uuta

    Egypt doesn’t heed them because it is very dangerous to Egypt.
    These values are democratic. And right now, terrorists love democracy……..

    Because it is so easy to hijack.

    How about the Orlando Daesh man who killed 49 in a nightclub? He even used to work for the CIA.

    Yes, the Middle East understands their problems more than the West. So, West? Go ahead and solve your problems, and we will solve ours. And if you want help, it is probably there, but first you have to realize that you need it.

  • Cactus Amr

    Opposing Ayman Nour means you are a terrorist.

https://dailynewsegypt.com/2016/06/11/western-allies-join-egypt-in-war-against-democratic-values/
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